back to mjk

I went back to the James Maynard Keenan forum... it has been almost a year that I hadn't posted. My last post was towards a member that responded with very explicit demands: "I'll wait a few years before I explain it to you. In the mean time , it would probably be best if you 'stay away' from me."

I tried waiting a few years, but, oh well, I only could wait 1... let see where this goes......

Rant 2006-04-19: Wise Men Words

Notes before reading:
*For an explanation on how this rant is organized, please: read this.
*This [not a] rant is posted in a message board inside the hi5 network. You need to register and find the group in which this message board resides which is Phylosophy with comments beginning with "Share your philosophical ideas with others? This is the place to be!".
*The discussion started when a member called Kelly asked if someone knew what this next phrase meant:

"For words are wise mens counters, they do but reckon by them: but they are the money of fools, that value them by the authority of an aristotle, a cicero, or a thomas, or any other doctor whatsoever, if but a man."

Various others came in trying to explain it... here are some that I think explained it better:

"Wise men can express themselves through their own wise words; but the unwise cannot, they can only quote words from the wise. The mere fact that one quotes from a "wise man" proves that one a fool."

Kelly (yeah, she answered herself):
"Wise men use words to keep track and build wise thoughts, and fools use wise men's words to acheive their own foolish or devious ends. The last three words, "if but a man", throws me off totally."

"The implication in saying "if [but] a man" [...] perhaps the author is saying that we should not accept "wise words" on the basis that they were said by a "wise man" because that "wise man" is but a man for doing such a thing would make us fools. I think basically what he's saying is that we need to be critical of the words of "wise men" and not fall into the trap of being in awe of the emperor's new clothes. We need to use such words to think, not to marvel because ironically that is what wise men themselves would have done. Aristotle, given the chance would have been critical of cicero and vice versa because these men were critically minded which is what gave them their reputations as "wise men" in the first place. So i guess we need to be critical of this author too ;)"

-This was a friendly discussion, so it may not be treated as a a rant per se. But the topic was interesting nevertheless.
-"Threading" is how I called how a forum works: someone begins a discussion by starting a thread with an initial post, in which anyone can reply to about that topic. This unencourages another discussion to creep in the one being discussed in the thread (if you want to talk about something else, just start a new thread about that). The way that hi5 works is the "message board" way in which anyone can message everyone about anything, so a discussion is quite difficult to follow having many messages of different topics in the same page.

[Not a] Rant:
I was reading the "thread" (which I would think that this type of discussion could be followed much easier if hi5 would use that type of system for messaging: "threading") and I was about to post something very similar to what Mona posted.
Coincidentally, the conclusion at which I was about to get to was the very same reason for me responding until I've read every message of the discussion: no opinion is holy from being discussed or challenged, because of which every opinion is valid from it's birth and may only be brought to it's death or glory by discussion not by deaf ears nor by indulgent eyes. Thus, an opinion (or "wise words") can't be taken as a dogma just because of the person that spoke it; ironically (because of the reference to Aristotle) this is a rule of Greek logic: the truthfullness of a statement may only be judged by the logic of other statements (or discussion), not by it's precedence. E.g., if a drunk came to me and demanded that I should stay away from alcohol because it's bad for me, even though his statement is hypocritical, the fact still remains that alcohol is bad for me.

B.T.W. This was my first post in this group. Hi!

I almost forgot...

I've "broken up" with Bere... that's gota be the shortest in my life. Almost two days, but it's ok: what I wanted was some company not a relationship and I was forcing myself to see her as something more than a friend. The great thing about everything is that she understood; she seemed hurt, obviously, but we talked quite a lot after the news, so I'm guessing she'll be alright.

Now that I think about it, I never actually said that was going out with her here, did I? Ja, well yeah: she sought me out and confronted me like she always is (tenderly) and subtly swept in the subject. I thought about it and it seemed like a very good idea, so we went for it; but when I got home I kept feeling more and more... well... nothing. I realized that I didn't have feelings for her, at least not in that way: she send me messages, I replied forcing myself to see her as a girlfriend, but nothing came out as such, and only replied like friends do.

This is for the best, anyway. I'm doing my best to go to England around summer this year, so this relationship would've been very short (well, it was anyway, jaja) and probably very hurting, for both of us. It's weird, it's the first time that I brake up with someone but not feel anything, a sign that it would've been even worse for her than I originally thought.

I gota admit: I really like my job

Look at me: I'm sitting here at Mexico's Airport, going home for Spring Break (yeah, I'm all backwards, I know), with nothing to do... and what do I do? Read ZDNet, Google Technology News, etc.

Probably I'm looking for a good rant, although I did the one for this week in advanced (or probably I could compensate for that week in which I didn't do one).

Oh well, good sign, nevertheless.

In other news, Manchester responded to my petition for a signature in a form that I needed to include in my scholarship petition to CONACYT... THAT I SEND A MONTH AGO!!! I put an equivalent paper in to replace it, but geez: couldn't that being done a little quicker? The thing that's worries me is that in the form they crossed the amount and put another one about 250 euros higher, I hope that doesn't provoke any problems with CONACYT as the amount that I'm asking for is not exactly the right one.

Oh well... Blogger Widget nice, but not enough for me.

Nice widget, a little bit slow but it probably is my connection.

That last post was testing the use of HTML code to make the title link to another site, but apparently Blogger cut it off.

Although it's very robust, I think is taking too much space. Probably because I'm used to DashBlog that just uses the space of it's toolbar until it's used for real.

It also gives the ability the handle various blogs at the same time (as Dashblog). But it's very odd for it have the title as “optional”: I always put a title in my posts (except for the last one). And all the blogs I've read have them as well: why not put the URL for which the title is linked as optional? That's something that I wish DashBlog had (I always have to go to the Blogger Post Editor to add this). Or maybe I'm missing something.

I like the idea of having it to grow as the post becomes bigger than the widget, but for long posters like myself: it grows until is out of the screen. Add to that the fact that there's isn't way (at least not an obvious one) to resize the widget. The combinations is very frustrating, for example, right now, I have to move the widget up to keep typing, even though I put this widget in the middle of the screen.

All and all it does it's job very well, so I do recommend it for small, hobby posters. But I think I'm sticking to DashBlog. Sorry Google.


hmm... let's see

it was kind of slow to post that last one

Testing Blogger Mac Widget

Testing new Blogger Widget provided by Gmail. Also testing the use of italics.

Let's see what happens with urls: plain and simple

Google and with HTML.

Hmm... i see it also grows as you type:


Rant 2006-04-05: Little world... & Standards

Notes before reading:
*For an explanation on how this rant is organized, please: read this.
*This rant is posted in this thread.
*The discussion is about an article that is about a new Microsoft product that will bring the checking of Hotmail into the desktop. For some reason, the thread began to enter the topic of standards and how Microsoft doesn't follow them.
-This rant is actually divided in two parts: my rant, that comes first, and the rant of colleague of mine name Jesus Alfonso or "Poncho". Apparently we both discovered this article and ranted very similarly which is quite entertaining.
-Both rants are directed to a user that goes by the name of xuniL, that posted here, although it won't be necessary for you to read it, I quoted pretty much the whole post in my rant.
-In my rant I use a lot of different names to refer to Microsoft, some of which are: MS, M$, Microsuck, Macrobogus, Microblows, and Macrodup.

Caleb's Rant:
linux and open sores is writing code that targets linux and unix.

Oh, c'mon! that's stupid and you know it "linux [...] is writing code that targets linux" DUH!!!!! Linux is an OS (a real one), it doesn't write code =P. And if your intentions were to point out that Microsoft as well as the Open Source community is targetting their own OS, I beg to differ: there are plenty of open source projects that are built for Windows. And as for Linux: every bit of code in there is plain C, a standard language. A language that can even be compiled in Windows (of course, after needing to buy the goddamn compiler that Microsoft bought from another company).

So what is your point? You call them open, but that is just your perspective. What makes the standards they use the best ones?There are bids now by India and China for new standards...should we ignore those, for yours? That may be a dumb example because they are forced to run lamux

Do you even get what the phrase "to use a standard" means? Do you even know what standards are we talking about? C, HTML, Javascript (in the early days), and what supposedly was the idea behind a Server Side Web Language (what then became PHP and ASP), were created aside from Linux and your "open sores" (BTW, I am going to play your game: Microsuck IT professional wannabe). And then all this projects adopted those standards. And those standards have been changing to adapt to new technologies like RSS feeds, WAP, etc. Which your precious lame excuse for a browser hasn't kept up with. You think that because 90% of all people are using your software is the reason for it to be treated as a standard, oh please; so don't say that the subject of M$ pulling that monopoly lever is out of the question (protecting their investment, my ass).

They're open: that is not a perspective is a fact. I can modify their source code and submit improvements without paying a penny: that's an open standard.

India and China are not forced to run Linux: they've chosen to switched to it because of all the crap that Macrobogus rent them.

So, partly, yes, you're right: that was a dumb example.

but what if Google comes out with some wild variation of linux that is mostly proprietary, will you still be standing behind them at that point? is not an open sores vendor you know. They aren't giving away any secrets.

Wow, you're really just spitting out bull without even knowing it:

Or what if somebody brighter than all of us comes up with an OS and set of protocols that blow any today away in terms of speed and usability and decides to copyright it and patent it? What makes open sores "the" standard? Cause you say so? I don't care how many standard orgs are involved. Most of them were spawned from some old governement agency or something like that, which we all know is always the worst way to do committee.

Or what if you just shut your s**thole and actually read something before openning it? If someone has an idea of improving a standard or creating a whole new one, those many standard orgs that you don't care about are a very good way to spread it around the IT community and making it easy to adopt it in the near future: the Internet Engineering Task Force is one of them ( ):

Here is the document that explains the DNS standard.

Here is the document that explains the HTTP (v 1.1) protocol.

Both of them were submitted by a person, a coder, someone like anybody here, and right now both of them are widely used. WINS is a Microblows standard that's very similar to DNS but, alas, I can't find it's explanation here. Tried googling "DNS standard" and came up with several other pages explaining it in the first result page (ironically, the first one was of Microsoft, explaining how to use their version of the DNS standard with dynamic registers [who said "security issues"?]), tried googling "WINS standard" and, alas, no dice. Well, WINS is a word not only used in tecnical aspects, so I used "Microsoft WINS standard" and it came up with this article of the story of former CIO of Massachusetts, Peter Quinn, whose decision to adopt ODF (OpenDocument Format), an open standard for office documents, to use in executive agencies was attacked by Microsoft.

God! How can you sleep at night saying "Most of them were spawned from some old governement agency or something like that"? By the look of things you don't even know how one those "standard orgs" work, how do you claim to know where have they come from? And even if it's true: I don't care, they work; no matter how much you ignore them, and don't care about them, they've brought us the standards that have been working in a much broader way than even Windows, and the means to improve those standards as well.

To me, the OS running on 90% of the worlds desktops is the standard? Majority rules, correct? Why don't you respect those standards....the standards adopted by most of the world.

Adopted? You mean cramed? And those "standards" aren't being adopted partially because of all their vulnerabilities that can't be fixed externally because of their closed code:
This article was reviewed and updated about two months ago. Basically saying that Macrodup is investigating (not actually fixing) a vulnerability in which by using their WINS server in several machines could cause those machines to be compromised. Their solutions: block ports at firewall (how the hell am I suppose to replicate then?), use IPSec to protect traffic (wow, encription, so server-to-server communication it's not encripted at all?), or not use WINS at all (wonderful).

And please don't go into some story about how the entire world was held for ransom and forced at gunpoint to buy Microsoft machines. That is just too lame, too old and wrong. They could have bought unix machines or apple machines or DR machines or any other OS along the way if they wanted to. Don't be selling the intelligence of the American people or any other people short. Anyone that says the average person doesn't know any better sounds like they are the one lost in their own little world.

Maybe, but did they buy any of those? Nope. What happenned when they wanted to switch? Because they have wanted to do that, many times. Too old, maybe: but it still happenned, so stop ignoring it. 90% of the market share was caught by pure well-crafted business planning (anyways, isn't "market share" a business term?). Bill knows how to sell and make other people buy, period.

"their own little world"? Aren't you the one saying that we're selling short the intelligence of the "American people"? If you hadn't noticed, a lot of people other than "Americans", are using computers. You're the one lost in your own little world, where you think a monopoly is good and you point the finger at the only thing in this IT world that's doing the anti-monopoly thing and claiming that it's monopolizing standards. And don't give me the "I've never said that they were monopolizing anything" crap: read your post, you are.

Get a PC and install Linux, get a book and read, get a browser (a real one) and surf, get a life, and get another screen name: you don't deserve to (and, apparently, you don't even want to) have any link to Linux, even if it's backwards.

Pocho's Rant:
Here we go again...

"linux and open sores is writing code that targets linux and unix."
I don't know what to say here. This is a plain lie. Many Open Source projects have Windows implementations. Clam, Perl, PHP, Apache... crap, just take a peek at

"...but what if Google comes out with some wild variation of linux that is mostly proprietary"
Hm... How, exactly, would a Google distro be proprietary? I mean, Linux as such is an OPEN kernel, so any closedness can only be present in a form of proprietary implementations of public-domain protocols and the kind. In such a scenario, Google would be hanging itself...

"Or what if somebody brighter than all of us comes up with an OS and set of protocols that blow any today away in terms of speed and usability and decides to copyright it and patent it?"
And, what, it became abandoned because patents made no one implement such a wonder? Breaking news: this has happened far too many times to list reliably. Just ask Sun, IBM, and, yes, Microsoft (although this one has never blown anyone away in terms of anything useful).

"What makes open sores "the" standard?"
Nothing. More than a standard by itself, Open Source seeks to be an implementation of "stuff" that has become standard.

"Most of them [standard-setting organizations] were spawned from some old governement agency or something like that, which we all know is always the worst way to do committee."
Really? Let's see how you do measuring your own height in King Charles' palms instead of meters (or yards, for that matter). And I also suppose that your own Department of Defense is pretty unreliable, since it's an old govenment agency that does things the worst way, right?
And just for the sake of curiosity, what's the "best" way to do things? With a group of pressure that changes both technical and non-technical specifications at will?

"To me, the OS running on 90% of the worlds desktops is the standard? Majority rules, correct? Why don't you respect those standards....the standards adopted by most of the world."
Majority does not set a standard. What you are describing is called "demagogy", which is fine to overthrow some sort of dictatorship, but not for an engineering infrastructure. By the way, I personally don't give a damn if 90% of the world's population uses Windows; I'm just glad that my grandparents (using Mac OS X Tiger) and my mother (using Fedora Linux Core 4), all average users who obviously don't know squat about OS/networking/IT theory, are able to do productive work anytime and are part of the 10% that do not have the constant fear of having their computers hijacked because they visited the wrong web page.

"And please don't go into some story about how the entire world was held for ransom and forced at gunpoint to buy Microsoft machines. That is just too lame, too old and wrong."
Just take a peek at Microsoft: Don't Sell PCs Without Operating Systems, also published in ZDNet. The issue is way old, that's correct. This is not 1996, when Microsoft could racketeer PC manufacturers and vendors at will, but the problem is not gone.

"They could have bought unix machines or apple machines or DR machines or any other OS along the way if they wanted to."
That's partially right. People have choices. The problem arises when Microsoft says any option but theirs is stupid, wrong, and/or dangerous, so as you are stating. That is a complete lie.

"Don't be selling the intelligence of the American people or any other people short. Anyone that says the average person doesn't know any better sounds like they are the one lost in their own little world."
In fact, the average user doesn't know better, but that DOES NOT imply that he/she is stupid. It's just that he/she does not have any obligation to know better. That's why Microsoft's lousy implementation of applications, protocols, etc., for the sake of demagogy and marketing is such a serious ethical offense.
Just as a side note, I know many average users (aside from my family) that know for sure that Windows is crap, but felt trapped because nobody had presented them alternatives (until now, that is).

By the way, this "open sores zealot" is an IT professional who is certified in both Linux and Windows, as well as *BSD. So I'm pretty confident I know what I'm talking about. Are you?

PS: What's the deal with the "open sores" thing? I hope it's just some dimwit word game; otherwise, I'll be VERY concerned...

Interesting idea: Code for a Cause

I've applied to be a volunteer coder community... interesting idea. Basically, if some non-profit organizations need a web page, they can seek out coders willing to give their energy and time to create it for them (click on the title for more information).

This is my profile, which struck me as an awaited surprise when I finish typing it:

"I'm a software and web developer working in my own company: Makko Solutions ( I find this project interesting and I love to code.

Work style and preferences:
My specialty is debugging and finding solutions to complex problems. I find complementing/solving others' work very rewarding. But, because it is not my work, I do try to check back and get the owner's opinion on it as much as I can; many people have found that a little annoying.

My main goal while coding is functionality covering all the types of scenarios I can think of (mainly, security). After that, I revise and recode to guarantee a certain level of efficiency while maintaining the functionality of the last step. Then, I go through the test phase: giving beta versions to friends, colleagues, and volunteer remote beta testers and note whatever seems prudent in their opinions or comments. And finally, do the necessary changes to take in the notes I took in the last step.

I also like to work directly on the server while maintaining a backup copy locally on my computer, unless that I'm asked not to do so. Thus, I can also work on the backup copy locally, and then upload, but I rather see the final product while I'm working on it.

Finally, I work on Mac and love it. Don't be afraid to discuss whatever issue revolving this topic (or whatever topic): I love a good technical or philosophical debate. =)"

Hehe, cool!

Rant 2006-04-03: and who is really wrong

Notes before reading:
*For an explanation on how this rant is organized, please: read this.
*This rant is NOT of my work; this is another of a colleague of mine. Apparently I started a trend in my company, jeje. It is posted in this thread and published here.
*The discussion is about an article that is about a new Internet Explorer vulnerability found which hacker use, luring people with excerpts of BBC news to a website that installs a keystroke logger in users computers.
-This is actually a reply to two posts of a user that goes by the name xuniL. Both posts are published here and here; I recommend you read them first because they are quite hillarious. They basically are very pro-Microsoft, talking about that the real issue here is not Internet Explorer (which is actually very useful and innovative) or trying to do silly and unproductive things like protecting the user's PC, but that the real issue and the ones to blame are the hackers which are actually doing the attacks… and much much more. Please, do read this posts: they make this rant even more entertaining.
-WMF is Windows Meta File, and were the cause of a very nasty Windows vulnerability about two months ago (more information about it here).
-:S is a disturbed smiley (see it bending you're head to your left).
-ZDNet is the News site in which this thread is posted.

I had a hard time deciding whether to sort all your lies alphabetically or or as they appear. Well, doesn't really matter.

1. “Let's say the bird flu starts to really spread. If you use the logic presented by the open sores zealots, you would just stay home where it's safe and never allow anyone over, is that it?” No, that's not it. Open Source would mean people would be vaccinated since birth and would provide antibodies for those who wouldn't. By the way, this same analogy was used gloriously by Microsoft when it advised users to stay away from Internet because of the WMF vulnerability.

2. “But the mentality of the open sores community seems to be each individual PC in the world should be able to protect itself and shun all attacks and spam and other sorts of malware.” That could not be more distant from the truth. There are numerous Open Source firewalls, virus scanners, etc., that scan for Windows flaws. I have one myself because I need a couple of Windows machines in a Mac/Linux environment. Such is life :S

3. “People forget the wonders you can do programming to IE on an intranet or the internet if it weren't for the attacks. Well, the smart thing to do is obvious. Stop the illegitimate traffic as close to it's sorce as possible to stop it from propogating the entire world and causing loss of productivity and that huge waste of bandwidth we could have back.”
First of all, what wonders? I can think of two basic “wonders”: VBScript ,which has already been deprecated by Microsoft; and ActiveX, needless to say, it's the prime point of entrance for malware. Or what? Any other reason why Microsoft promotes the use of ActiveX but blocks it by default? Oh, another thing: non-admin logins anyone?

4. “That (virus scanning at public routes) alone would free up massive amounts of bandwidth.” Well, all that “freed up” banwidth would translate into used processing power, to say the least. But even then, clients would be forced anyway into having something to defend, because NO SECUTIRY MEASURE CAN 100% PROTECT AGAINST PRESENT AND FUTURE VULNERABILITIES.

No quote here, just some thoughts:
Do you even know what malware is? I'll be kind enough to tell you: it's an exploit for a KNOWN vulnerability. Having antimalware programs in the first place means that such vulnerabilities are pretty much in the public domain, isn't it?

Many defenders use heuristics, which leads to a rhetoric question: wouldn't these heuristics help Microsoft know what in the world is wrong with it's programs?

By the way, 99% of exploit are OS-dependant, not hardware-dependant. So, if you hear casks, do you think horses or zebras?

Geez, I hope ZDNET starts asking for an IT degree (or SAT scores, for that matter) before letting people post this kind of bull.

Rant 2006-03-31: Sobre Pagina

Notes before reading:
*For an explanation on how this rant is organized, please: read this.
*This rant is not actually of my doing. It's the labor of a colleague of mine and I thought it was beautifully done; a little harsh, but well written.
*The discussion is about the fact that once, a long time ago, when Makko Solutions was very naive (probably not even officially born yet), we build a website for a company called AxS Tracker (the company revolved around a product that tracked the access of a building by checking fingerprints at the entrance; a couple of my colleagues worked on it and pretty much build the damn thing). And like in any other website we've done, we gave ourselves such credit of BUILDING THE WEBSITE (not the product, because my colleagues had signed an agreement) and put it up in our website. A lady by the name of Wendy Elena Sinecio Cardenas wrote to us ordering us to not only seize and desist claiming that we did that website but that we were also claiming that we build their main product (making reference to the Mexican Institute of Industrial Property), and even threatening to sue. Here's a copy of the letter that she sent to us: "

To: ventas at makko dot com dot mx


Estimados Señores,
Me permito distraer su atención con la finalidad de hacer notar que en la página de Internet que ustedes presentan, hacen mención de que son ustedes quienes han hecho dicha página, lo cual es imposible puesto que la ley de Derechos de autor se encuentra establecido que quien se encuentre registrado ante el Instituto Mexicano de la Propiedad Industrial es el autor de la obra por tal motivo solicitamos de la manera más atenta sea desligada de nuestra compañía cualquier cosa que ustedes o su compañía refiera a AxS Tracker, toda vez que nos encontraremos en la penosa necesidad de remitirnos a los tribunales competentes por la trasgresión que cometen a nuestros derechos así mismo recordarles que el secreto industrial es toda aquella información de aplicación industrial o comercial que guarde una persona física o moral con carácter de confidencial por ello No se considerará que entra al dominio público o que es divulgada por disposición legal aquella información que sea proporcionada a cualquier autoridad por una persona que la posea como secreto industrial, cuando la proporcione para el efecto de obtener licencias, permisos, autorizaciones, registros, o cualesquiera otros actos de autoridad. Tal y como se encuentra definido en la Ley de Propiedad Industrial.

Dado que no existe ningún acuerdo escrito y mucho menos verbal con su empresa les solicitamos atentamente se sirvan a remover la mencionada referencia inmediatamente, toda vez que de no hacerlo nos remitiremos a las autoridades correspondientes.

Sin más por el momento quedo a sus órdenes.

Santiago de Querétaro, Qro; Marzo 2006.

Apparently, AxS Tracker hired another company to revamp it's website and we hadn't noticed.
-This rant is written in spanish (as you may have guessed), so pull out your spanish-english dictionary.
-The lady hasn't returned our email.
-As the rant explains, we did take off the credit of building AxS Tracker's website from ours, and, after seeing what that new company did with the website, thank God we did.


Espero que se encuentre bien.

Antes de cualquier cosa, me gustaría que nos proporcionará su vínculo con la página de Web del AxS Tracker, ya que al parecer su correo proviene de una cuenta de, lo cual me parece un poco informal, sobre todo si reclama algo del sitio.

Como segundo punto, de lo que entiendo en el correo mal redactado que me envío, usted cree que nosotros nos estamos adjudicando la creación del producto a pesar de que en nuestra página dice con letras grandes "TRABAJOS DE REDES" y en la lista "SITIO DE AxS Tracker". Así es: para su información nosotros realizamos el sitio web anterior; veo que ahora lo han cambiado, y en ese aspecto, primeramente, le ofrezco una disculpa al no estar pendientes del nuevo sitio Web. Por consiguiente procederemos a quitarla de nuestro portafolio, ya que además de los aspectos legales que conlleva, también, honestamente, no cumple con los estándares de calidad que ofrecemos en Makko Solutions S.A. de C.V., tanto de diseño como en el aspecto programático, y de ninguna manera queremos robarles la autoría de la plantilla que utilizaron para crearla, en caso de que eso sea lo que me esta reclamando. Así que no se preocupe, el día de hoy por la tarde no habrá ninguna relación con la nueva página e imagen de su producto.

Sin más por el momento me despido, agradeciéndo su tiempo para revisar nuestro sitio xhtml transitional =).


Ing. Josué Enríquez
Director de Ventas
Makko Solutions S.A. de C.V.

c.c.p. Junta de consejo

p.d. Si no es molestia, ¿Cómo se enteró de nosotros?