New lady friend and co-worker...

It's odd, but there's something about the company of a girl that makes it so less tense in the work place. Her name is Monica (or, MoniK, just for the fun of it, hehe), and she's cool: continues on with our jokes, not just shouting "eww!" (y'know what I'm talking about).

She's our new designer. We're basically "using" her abilities for web design: we're three systems engineers and, although I believe we have a certain good sense of beauty and well-proportioned design, she does that for a living and is much better at that than we are. Even more so in the department in which she has more experience: Corporative Image, a concept that has to integrate and be congruent with the web page of that company (or corporation, if you will); so, yeah, she's great for the job.

But she brings so much more to the it than that: she's a new face, for one, so another's opinion is always good; she's very kind and enjoyable, so she makes coming to the office more entertaining; and she works on a mac... what else could you ask for in co-worker? Hehe, I hope I'm not jinxing this.

Even more so: she's kinda cute, and that's always a plus. Don't get me wrong, I mean, she has a boyfriend (a way older boyfriend) in a very serious relationship, so no dice, and no worries as well: seriously! I'm just glad that, for a change, I get to hang out with someone of the opposite sex in my workplace... I dunno, I always tend to enjoy more the company of the female kind; probably cuz I'm a guy, hehe. A guy that's been surrounded by a couple of other guys with no social life... like me, haha.

Rant 2006-05-05: Jem and They's Kids

Notes before reading:
*For an explanation on how this rant is organized, please: read this.
*This (not a)rant is posted in this thread, which is quite long: go here if you wan to read it published.
*The discussion is about figuring out what the kids are saying in the backdrop of the song "They" from the artist Jem.
-Dagger is a member of the forum that is very enthusiastic and, dare I say, quite adicted to the topic, and has already found out some stuff about the CD of the origin of such recording:

ANTHOLOGIE DE LA MUSIQUE DES PYGMEES AKA [SOUND RECORDING] = MUSICAL
ANTHOLOGY OF THE AKA PYGMIES.
Traditional songs and dances of the Aka.
Originally released in 1978 as analog recording (Ocora 558 526--558 528).
Program notes by Simha Arom in French with English translation (27 p. : ill.
(some col.), maps) bound in container.
Vocal works sung in Akan.
Field recordings by Simha Arom.
Recorded 1972-1977, in the Lobaye region of the Central African Republic.
Compact discs.

-The name of the CD and some other information was picked up by another member that went by the name of Troffhouse:

"In the film "Until The End Of The World" (1991) by Wim Wenders the children can first be heard when William Hurt (Sam/Trevor) and Solveig Dommartin (Claire) are driving on a highway (freeway) at around the 18 minute mark of the film or a minute or two after the police on motorbike(s) pull away from their car (this on the version i have). on the soundtrack to the film they are in the "Opening Titles" (you can hear it from the sample on Amazon.com). the credits say the children are Bayakan Pygmies (in the film it says they are from Cameroon) and it's taken from "Anthologie de la Musique des Pygmees AKA" (Phonogramme C-559012-13) and they appear courtesy of OCORA Radio France (too much information?)."

-This is not a rant (yes, again, another [not a] rant... which are becoming increasingly comfortable to write... deal!).
-This thread has been around since November 2004, and very actively being posted at, so it's quite unusual.
-A lot of persons were aluding to the possibility of it being some kind of sublinimal message, while others were tormenting themselves of why would Jem would put such an egotistical call to herself in her own song thinking the kids were saying "Jem jem jem..."

[Not a ]Rant:
Dagger and Troffhouse gave me a real good start... thanks!

Go here and look for the song named "Nze-nze-nze" (number 17, of Disc 1). You can hear a bit of it, but sufficiently, with Real Player or Windows Media Player.

If you go here, you'll a find a listing with more complete names, in which our song is named "Trois jeux d'enfants chant├ęs : Nze-nze-nze (La ronde du grillon)" (is the second from the bottom going up, left column). Pardon my french (which is absent from me), but after using the language tools of Google, apparently the title of the track is "Three sets of sung children: Nze-nze-nze (the round of the cricket)" (kinda resembles the sound of a cricket, doesn't it?). You can also find some stuff about it if you look for "Nzenzenze", although a lot of it is in French.

This song is an essential part of Central African children's game: it's objective it's to practice the phonetics of their language; similar to a nursery rime ("Bingo was his namo!"): it has no meaning, no deep quandry about life, no subliminal messages. Just some kids playing and singing (to answer some thoughts that were going around in this thread). Because of which, it's kinda hard to find out what is they're actually saying; they maybe saying nothing at all... over here in Mexico we have some children's songs that are just rubbish: "Chu chuhua chu chuhua chu chuhua hua hua", (think train: "chu chu!" then a "wah!") so this is not uncommon in many world cultures.

Hope this helps!

Wow, almost a year and a half for this thread... how do you guys do it?

Rant 2006-05-01: May 1st, No Latinos for a Day

Notes before reading:
*For an explanation on how this rant is organized, please: read this.
*This rant is posted in this thread.
*The discussion is about the fact that May 1, 2006, a protest will take place in which no Latino will go to work (in the U.S.), no U.S. product will be bought and no U.S. service will be asked for.
- The thread is really long and about 95% of posters were supportive toward the protest, but there were two comments that really caught my eye (specially because they were part of that other 5%):

By Chris:
Well, myself and all those I know who own or manage businesses, will be firing every person who 'skips out' on work that day. The significance of the protest is too transparent. These fools are even being exploited on their ‘big protest day'. Um, FYI May 1st is known as MAY-DAY, the biggest marxist/stalinist/maoist/communist holiday ever. It is there Fourth of july, memorial day, labor day, Christmas, and St. patricks day all rolled into one. The groups actually organizing this event, are the american communist party (International-ANSWER, WWP). They are exploiting stupid mexicans to bring numbers for their big day. This is not a mistake, if you REALLY want to piss off americans, march against us on may first. Yeah, good work, you will get a backlash like none other (don't worry, i can do fine without a nacho supreme on may 1st or any other day). After a 50 year cold war to keep Communism out of our borders, you folks are going to bring it back? Remember, Americans are a tough lot. We have kicked your butts many times over, even when severely outnumbered. Read up on it. Most of you dropped out of High school, so look it up now. What is May-Day, and what does it signify, then decide if you want to march in the name of that movement.
As far as a boycott, well, one day would be a bit disruptive. Sudden change always is. How about a 6 month long boycott???? Do it! This would REALLY prove something. American wages would go up, standard of living would go up, crime would decrease, and those jobs that ‘nobody wanted to do (ie:nobody wanted to do for slaves pay but happily did when labor laws helped americans) would suddenly have attractive salaries again. Did you know, that just 10 years ago, a construction WORKER could buy a home, a nice car, and support an entire family on his paycheck? no more. Those $25 per hour wages are now $8 per hour. Americans will work construction, they just need to get paid for it. Illegal immigration drives down wages. Plain and simple. We are equal, we are all poor and in misery, is the protesters goal. A bit like mexico I guess. Bring everyone else down to the gutter, so you can feel better about yourself.
BIG questions here. So, all the white people (european) should go back to Europe. Well, you folks are spaniards along with your rainforest bloodline. So, you will be coming with us. The only ones who can stay in America are american native descendants. Hmm, Aztecs died off LONG time ago. Mexicans have little if any relation to them. The indians are gone. Mexicans are no more native to this land than a german sausage maker, or a chinese cook. You are new-world mutts, just like us.
You are not ancient indians. You do not even know the tongue, you speak spanish, from SPAIN - EUROPE. You are mexicans, not some legendary aboriginal culture. Our nations even came to be in the same time period. We had very similar land, similar resources (except we have far less oil). What happened, why is america the most advanced, fruitful nation on the planet, and mexico is a 3rd world slum? We started the same, had the same opportunities and resources? Why did mexico fail so badly as the United States rose so quickly?
Mexicans failed to build a nation,. they built a slum. Now, they want to hijack our infrastructure and claim it. Sorry, not going to happen.
There are so many immature comments in this thread, it's difficult to even count them. Once again, nobody has a problem with immigrants. My parents are both immigrants, but they did it legally. We have, in this country, things called laws, we try to follow them to build a safe, just society. This is what enables the opportunities that we enjoy. We have protections under the law. If mexicans can break the law, and expect to be rewarded for it, our country falls to pieces. I don't even blame the illegals for coming here for work. I blame the companies that hire and exploit them. I don't want to criminalize the illegals, i want to criminalize, heavily fine, and shut down the companies who hire them. Shut down the exploitation jobs, and they will not come. Maybe then these same people might protest their OWN government for its failings, rather than protest ours for not fixing theirs. It is their mess that was built with their own hands, don't spoil ours.
Once again, if you want to truly prove a point, don't do a DAY without illegal mexicans, do 6 months, or 1 year. A realistic barometer. I can guarantee the economy will flourish like never seen before in the US. No unemployment, and jobs that pay fair wages. Imagine that! Maybe the protests CAN have a positive effect, as long as they keep them up long enough.

By someone nicknamed “Concerned”:
The world was inhabited by immigrants. In the early days of man kind many groups and tribes of people relocated to search for environments and climates that were better for their survival. Does that mean that modern day countries can not protect there borders because at some point in the past their ancestors came from another land?

Also, I think that they need a different way of protesting. I mean the unfortunate stereo type of latinos is that they are lazy and don't work. So, in protest, they are going to not work for a day and enjoy a three day weekend? Seems like a strange choice to me.

Bottom line is that a country has a right to protect its borders. This isn't just a piece of unclaimed land free for who ever wins king of the hill. It is a country. If they want to join this country then there are methods (which I agree need improvement) but if they are just interested in ignoring the laws of the country. Then… they are foriegn invaders. Which is it. DO they want to join the USA. or defeat it.

- Interesting about this, is that I responded to these posts, and was responded by someone named Phil. So here is the “conversation” we had… bring out your popcorn or something, cuz this one is long!

My Part I:
I haven't read the whole thread (there are many posts here, jeje, good…) but I'm probably one of the few mexicans that have posted here that is actually still in Mexico.

I have some very conflicting thoughts about this, but I have found a lot opinions coming from (for now let's call them) legal Americans (persons that have about 30 generations of their families born and raised in the U.S.) that are a real shockers:
  1. Aztecs, Mayans, Tarahumaras, etc. are still thriving in Mexico. We may see one or two on a light stop begging for money, but for each one of them there a dozen working hard up there in the forest, maintaining their own lives like they always have before spaniards came along.
  2. Native Mexicans languages, although not teached at elementary schools, is still something that can be learned by the same way. A lot of public colleges have an optional courses to learn it, and, because Native Mexicans are still thriving, there are a lot of sources to pick it up.
  3. Mexicans have a high percentage of Native blood running through their veins. Don't try to compare the level of “nativeness” between a legal American and a Mexican… just compare the color of your skin with ours; there's your answer. The U.S. was founded by a bunch of people who didn't want to have anything to do with the Natives, and Mexico was founded by a bunch of people who began families with them (true, most of them were robbers, rapers, and criminals, but the fact of the matter is: the races were combined because of it). I own land here, not by money or by a law that was created by a race that didn't belong here, but because this is were my great, great, great, great, great, great,…….., great, great, great, grand father and his family lived from it. The great, great, great, great, great, great,…….., great, great, great, grand father of any legal American (from either side of the family) came from somewhere else, and if not, it's the minority.
  4. What does it actually mean “to protect the borders”? No more people coming in through the borders? What borders? Who planted those borders? If you want to walk through history lane talking about “In the early days of man kind many groups and tribes of people relocated to search for environments and climates that were better for their survival.”, fine, I will not go so much as three centuries ago, when those states were Mexico's property, so I don't see why it's wrong for people wanting to wave the Mexican flag over it (although, that flag wasn't the one we had when we had those states). So, U.S. planted those borders, by what law? By what authority? You are talking about being law-biding about how to cross your border (yes, YOUR border), why? You weren't when you crossed OURS!
  5. Chris, get over it: the Cold War wasn't won by you or the communists. It's still there: China (which, aren't you guys still doing business with?), Cuba, the large remains of Russia, and probably even Mexico if the Socialist party wins the election this year (which has an interesting probability). It's so eerie listening you guys talk about “openness” and “freedom”, when you condemn any person that thinks differently from you. And FYI:
    • May 1st it's the Mexican Labor Day. Your “May Day”, is actually the date (1886) of a major strike to reduce the workday to eight hours and it was celebrated in that same day by many industrialized countries, including Russia, France and the U.K, but Russia corrupted it to something below it's meaning, so the U.S. changed it's date to another one to prevent having anything to do with communism (like you always do).
    • 4th of July is also the date in which Napoleon's France occupied Amsterdam (1810, don't you guys hate the french?) and also when the mass murder of Polish scientist and writers by Nazi Germany took place (1941, wow, fireworks in the date of a Nazi mass murder, didn't you guys “kick their butts” also?).
    So stop yapping about your capitalist paranoia: today we celebrate the day in which the hard worker was heard by protest, why do you think this date was chosen for this?
  6. Interesting theory: “American wages would go up, standard of living would go up, crime would decrease, and those jobs that 'nobody wanted to do' (ie:nobody wanted to do for slaves pay but happily did when labor laws helped americans) would suddenly have attractive salaries again.” Let's put ourselves in that theoretical moment in time where legal Americans are doing the ugly work… what happens to the money that you were not paying the Latinos, that now you're paying almost double to someone doing the same job? Less profit, lay-offs, less jobs, salaries will have to come back down, more jobs but people will have to take two or more jobs to pay rent (like most Latinos do right now), less jobs again… that statistic you showed about a construction worker could support his family on his paycheck, a $25 per hour wage, I wonder why construction was so slow back then? Too few contruction workers to afford? Besides, most of the money that payed for those constructions was of foreign capital, or do you actually believe that the Statue of Liberty is of U.S. real state? Wonder why is facing to Europe? Oh, right, to welcome people from other places fleeing from opressing countries in EUROPE… “give me your poor, your tired…” right?
  7. Many laws that are written in your Constitution (as well as ours) have been initiated by protest: Civil Rights, Race Equality, Woman's Right to Vote, Freedom of Speech, Gay Rights, etc. Your Constitution is not holy, and has had a lot of changes through the years, so stating “We have, in this country, things called laws[…]We have protections under the law. If mexicans can break the law, and expect to be rewarded for it, our country falls to pieces.” would've meant, two centuries ago, that slavery is ok. I'm not saying to go rewrite the Constitution to legalize murder or rape, because, aside from being morally wrong, these topics don't have enough people to support them. A protest is exactly that: a way to show everybody how many people support this, with their own argumentation, and the way to be heard is by numbers and it's purpose is to open eyes: Latinos right now are important to U.S. economy and without them it will crumble. It can recover itself as any country can (Mexico has begun recovering from all those hard workers leaving the country), but is that what you really want to do? Get rid of all illegal immigrants? Illegal by what law? Your 'immigration' law? How convenient! You wrote that law without the consent of the people that were originally living here, so that 'immigration' law should mean little to an immigrant or myself for that matter, so no: illegal immigrants aren't breaking any laws because that law isn't a valid one to begin with. Just because you've followed it for who knows how long, and stands well with your lifestyle doesn't make it right (ask any woman over at Islamic India). I want to hear a Native American about this subject, that's the opinion that I will respect. If he doesn't want Latinos in his/her land, then we'll talk (and open a huge can of worms)…

    This is not a lazy walk, this is not a day of couching, this is a day of fasting, of prayer, of protest. If you still see a Mexican as a lazy ass, and think that this is what this 'protest' is all about (firing anyone who you think 'skipping out' this day make it seem like you are) then your businesses will really see hard days ahead of them. And, does that mean you have Latinos working for you? Doesn't that sound a little hypocritical and little offensive to your work force calling them “fools” and “stupid”? Even more so: are you seriously connecting the Latinos emigration from the U.S. to an expected fall in criminal activity? Wow, and I thought the insensitive, prejudging, ignorant, big-mouth, typical legal American was a myth.

    “We hang the petty thieves, but appoint the great ones to public office.” Aesop
  8. These people, my people, have struggled, not only on your land, but also in mine. They have chosen to work somewhere else that isn't their original home, and for that I'm ashamed of my country's government and partly of myself as well. It is awful that so many of my brothers with a college degree in hand have gone out and found out that looking for a job of high standards in the U.S. is just as hard as looking for one here. No, the U.S. is not the land of opportunity presumed in stereotype, at least not in the high-paying area. Many families that I know and love have had to come back, with the half the money and self-respect they had before crossing, while others stayed earning half as much as they were earning here because they didn't have enough to come back. Mexico has problems, like any country out there, including the U.S.: there are a lot of legal Americans that have emigrated to other countries (mainly Europe, even Mexico) to find better jobs; so don't brag about not having any problems of this kind, that you do, just not in such a scale and not as documented and criticized as Mexico's.
We're both working on those problems, solving them; it's just that some people don't want to deal with these problems and go somewhere else to start a new life, thinking that running away will solve everything. For some (many, apparently) it has worked, and good for them! Really! If you're happy, I'm happy. My cousin's family is living over there, had to wait almost five years to get accepted, but they are accepted, and they're very happy. Already having grandchildren…

But, right now I feel like a mother listening to his child talk about his/her dreams, and the only way I can react to that is to support them, although I know that he/she will be happier at home. No, I don't fully agree with my brothers being over there, I much rather have them here, working side by side building a better country for both of us. But it was their decision to go over there; I know my brothers (and sisters) are smart and know what's best for them, and if that's what makes them be well, then I wish them success. I just hope one day, they will look back south and see a place where they can truly say “I'm proud to be home.”

Phil's Part I:
CALEB,

You make SOME good points, but we need to stay focused here. It is NOT about whether one RACE is lazy or whatever. YES, there are ignorant people in EVERY group of people, AMERICAN, MEXICAN, etc.

YES, this IS the LAND OF OPPORTUNITY, CALEB! I know how the MEXICANS live here. AGAIN, I am immersed in the culture, but LISTEN….the reason that UNDOCUMENTED workers do not get “AHEAD” is simple. MANY take advantage of their CHEAP labor. In other words, $250 a week for 60 hours of work. That is not going to help them advance much.

Look, in the UNIVERSITY, there are COLOMBIANS, PUERTO RICANS, DOMINICANS, MEXICANS, ETC. “THEY” will, once finished with their studies, earn MUCH more than a person in MEXICO with a college degree. I know, because one of my sister-in-laws works as a NURSE in MEXICO after studying for 4 years and does NOT make very much money.

But LISTEN, CALEB, PLEASE: WHO BENEFITS “MOST” in this LAND OF OPPORTUNITY when the MEXICANS come here?? THE MEXICAN CHILDREN!

YES, it is very difficult for a 1st GENERATION MEXICAN IMMIGRANT in the U.S. to KEEP WORKING for LOW WAGES, STUDY, LEARN ENGLISH, work their way up the SOCIETAL LADDER in the U.S., etc. STILL, IT CAN BE DONE.

BUT, the CHILDREN, like my 7 year old MEXICAN niece, “WILL” be able to have EASY ACCESS to the great OPPORTUNITES in EDUCATION in the U.S., and their FUTURES will be BETTER off.

CALEB, for NOW, the U.S. is a better place for a CHILD to be born and a CHILD has more opportunities in this land. So, CALEB, when you think about the U.S. as being a “LAND OF OPPORTUNITY”, think MORE about the 2nd generation of MEXICAN IMMIGRANTS who will BENEFIT for their PARENTS SACRIFICES.

ALSO CALEB, it would appear that you love your NATIVE country, MEXICO. That is how it SHOULD be. I have NO doubt that the MEXICAN PEOPLE are, on the whole, GOOD PEOPLE, and that they would RATHER have a good life in MEXICO with their FAMILY, CULTURE, etc. Even the MEXICANS here LOVE their native LAND, as they SHOULD.

THEIR ANCESTORS WERE FROM MEXICO, and the countless historical sites of the Aztecs, Mayans, etc. (Tehuantepec, Tenochtilan, The Murals in D.F., etc.)SURELY will always be a part of “BEING MEXICAN.” I mean, MEXICO is the land where they still speak NAHUATL and CHOL (I believe the latter is a MAYAN language, could be wrong). SO WHAT IS “NOT” TO BE PROUD OF??

The MEXICANS are proud of their heritage as they have the RIGHT to be.

NOW, CALEB, I myself MENTIONED the MEXICAN AMERICAN WAR OF 1846-1848 above in an earlier post. But Caleb, you wrote SOMETHING to the effect of “YOU came over to these lands, etc.” Look, “I” and my fellow AMERICANS of today are JUST AS MUCH NATIVE AMERICANS as the INDIANS in my view. LIKE THE INDIANS, “WE”, this generation were BORN here on THIS SOIL. IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE WHERE OUR ANCESTORS CAME FROM, “WE” DID NOT COME OVER TO THIS LAND, “WE” WERE BORN HERE!!

As a matter of FACT, NOBODY knows even where the NATIVE AMERICAN INDIANS ORIGINALLY CAME FROM OR WHERE THE “HUMAN RACE” ORIGINALLY STARTED OUT FROM!! SO, EVERYONE, INCLUDING YOUR PEOPLE HAS PROBABLY MIGRATED TO OTHER LANDS WHERE ANOTHER GROUP WAS LIVING AS WELL AT THE SAME TIME, SO WHAT IS THE POINT?

You also mentioned that “it was not long ago that these lands were MEXICAN” and that “why shouldn't they fly the Mexican flag over them?” Look, it has been ONLY in RECENT times that the WORLD, for the most part, has respected the BORDERS of the many countries which we have today.

BEFORE, MANY WARS were FOUGHT to decide who would take TERRITORY. That was the WAY of OUR ancestors and the way of the WORLD back then. This INCLUDES LATINOS… (Simon Bolivar, San Martin, etc.) The AZTEC INDIANS took land from other groups of INDIANS, etc. That is just how people lived BACK THEN. So do not use that WAR of 1846 to COMPARE to today's society and the culture we live in today. What MEXICO LOST is in the past. TODAY we are more EDUCATED people and our countries do not just TAKE other countries land. I AGREE that it was a BAD DEAL for MEXICO, but that is just HISTORY. Don't blame people today for this! And NO, it does NOT give them the RIGHT to fly the MEXICAN flag over the U.S.! What “GIVES THEM THE RIGHT” is the U.S. Constitution and the 1st AMENDMENT.

I would HOPE and I myself BELIEVE that the GOOD MEXICAN people would fly the MEXICAN FLAG only as a symbol of their LOVE for their PEOPLE, CULTURE, and NATIVE LAND and NOT over something that happened in 1846.

LASTLY, please just ADMIT that the U.S. ECONOMIC system is in better shape than the MEXICAN system. The U.S. GOV'T, although it has its own problems, is ALSO structured better at this point of time than that of MEXICO. The AMERICAN system is not PERFECT, but it is the best we have.

I understand where your PRIDE comes from, and your HERITAGE is very important. The MEXICAN PEOPLE are merely victims of CORRUPTION, but that does NOT mean that the PEOPLE are not GREAT people who love the “LAND” and the “CULTURE” they belong to…..I understand that and respect that.

My Part II:
Phil,

Thank you for your words. My words were in response to the post of such named Chris, April 11, 2006 @ 12:31 am. In such types of comments, I feel the need to point this kinds of things (my pride, history, etc.) to prove a point. If whatever I wrote (specially in the area of race) has upset you, I'm truly sorry for this wasn't my intention, at least not to you: you have written well (historically and grammatically, in both languages, which is something to applaud) and well argumented, so I apologize for this.

Having said that, the U.S.-Mexico war of the 19th century is, yes, old… I understand waving a foreigners flag in U.S. soil can be disrespectful to others; and yes, you're completely right: most immigrants are waving it as a sign of pride, not of sorrow. And even more so right: we're all immigrants and belong wherever we were born.

But in my opinion, the topic of that war is still valid. Not to blame it on any legal American, but to make them aware of the land in which they're living in. This is not your land, not mine. When we die, we will become it, so, in some way, we are property of the land. The same way I cannot say for sure how a legal American has lived, or how has an immigrant lived: I haven't walked in their shoes, through the land… I have witnessed how some of my brothers I KNOW have struggled in the land you walk on, and at that I have stopped my comment: I haven't assumed nothing of your government. I haven't said that Mexican has done a better job than the U.S. government, I have just stated the pride of my people, and the fact that we are working in making our situation better. I've pointed out, like you have: both of our governments have problems that we're dealing with. But comments like:

“the U.S. is a better place for a CHILD to be born”

Ouch!… firstly, I was raised in the border (Cd. Juarez/El Paso), and had a lot of friends that were born in the U.S. that had a childhood very similar to mine… secondly, what is “better”? Is it safer? Is it more tolerant? Is it cheaper? C'mon, look around and sincerely answer these questions, you may even be right… thirdly, it hurts to hear such an open-minded person like yourself talk like that. I truly did not believe the myth of the ellitistic legal American: why compare? why say better? Many believe that, many have moved there because of that belief, and for many it has worked out, for others it hasn't: and I think that you should first ponder about that before making me say something that I know for fact it's not true: I lived here, and am happy here, and, yes, I know that I'm better off here than in your country. We're talking about my life and the place that I lived in, here: so, don't you think that comment was a little offensive? I mean, you may think you have proof of that: so many people going over there. But only empowered by a beleif, not by assurance… and that belief could've been brought up by many factors, some of which are not true.

Have you thought about how many people were born here in Mexico? How many of those are happy here? And are better off here? That's a lot of more than the ones that are over there, I assure you, so I'm not the only one.

I'm not saying Mexico's is a better place for children to be born in: that's a parent decision to make. If you want your children to be born in the U.S., good; I want my children to be born here, deal?


” 'THEY' will, once finished with their studies, earn MUCH more than a person in MEXICO with a college degree.”
“one of my sister-in-laws works as a NURSE in MEXICO after studying for 4 years and does NOT make very much money.”
“please just ADMIT that the U.S. ECONOMIC system is in better shape than the MEXICAN system”

Uhmm… a nurse career is done in two years (half time) and I have a friend that studied eight years here and is only being payed minimum salary, know why? Those eight years were spend finishing high school… besides I know of a lot nurses over here with very good salaries… by mexicans standards: yes, our economic systems are different, you take in a lot of money, but you also take out a lot. I don't have my statistics with me, but for what I've seen, to live in the U.S. is much more expensive than in Mexico: but you get paid more, so is no big deal for you. So are you in better shape? Yes, of course! We asked you guys to lend us money, that's how better shape you are! Uhmm… are you done? God! I really didn't want to get into this but: do you actually know of the problems of your country? I know of mine, and I'm still proud to be mexican………………… I'm sorry, is just that everytime someone begins comparing our countries I get so frustrated: we're working on it, that's all I get to say, because yes, I'm aware of our economic problems, but this doesn't get solved quickly. But it's very important for me that you understand that a life is built not around money, while it's basically the only thing I hear you guys compare our country with yours (that, and the corruption, which you guys aren't immune to). Those other things in which a life is built upon is where lies the reason I love being a mexican: our way of life, the values it grows upon, the joy of our culture, the weirdness of it, how we sing during funerals, cry during birthday parties, if you don't have someone to party with “go ask your cousins to come over!” (instant party), if you don't have a reason to party “well, my niece had it's first tooth” (done!), our beautiful food, the creativity that it's at the base of all of it, the problem resolving that ONE person can do with just a hammer and two coins, how we can withstand insult after insult but “just don't talk about my mom cuz you're dead”, and the fact that my family is still the source of my biggest strength… that does not compare with what your country has to offer me: you can have your economy, I'll stay here and enjoy my tacos.

Phil's Part II:
CALEB:

First of all, let me start out by saying that you know that I respect your culture and, as a matter of fact, I PREFER many aspects of the MEXICAN culture over my own. There is no doubt that your people and your culture are RICH in other ways that MONEY cannot buy. I will not debate that.

Second, I will accept your apology and just point out that anyone who makes BLANKET statements about one particular race usually just destroys the VALID points that are made by that same person. Sure, you may find some sympathizers, but you will lose practically all of your support that you otherwise could've gained. You just shut yourself off to GOOD caring people who agree with you. So that's that.

Hmmmmmm…, Thirdly, let me address your response to the comment I made, “It is better for a CHILD to be born in the U.S.” Ok, here we go. Caleb, what I was referring to is the FACT that 50% of MEXICANS are impoverished. To me, THIS, POVERTY, is the real enemy.

Ok, with that said, let me tell you that SURE there are people that wil have good lives in MEXICO. Once again, TRADITIONS, CULTURE, FAMILY, etc. are ALL very important POSITIVE ASPECTS of living in MEXICO. HOWEVER, the U.S. is stronger in EDUCATION, ECONOMY, JOBS, SECURITY, etc. These TOO are important for a CHILD's FUTURE.

The FACT is that many MEXICANS come to the U.S. because they deem these latter items mentioned to be VERY important. Many MEXICANS do NOT feel that they have the BEST opportunities to ADVANCE in life, so they come here. The stats are that ONE in EVERY TEN CHILDREN born to MEXICAN BORN PARENTS IS born in the U.S. That is a FACT.

Listen CALEB, this isn't to DOWNGRADE your country!! Don't let me OFFEND you! I AGREE with you that the MOST important things in life are FAMILY, CULTURE, TRADITIONS, etc. In a perfect UTOPIAN society, these would be GREAT by themselves and everyone would be able to just live, work any job, make a living and spend time with their family and practice their culture.

Unfortunately, my friend, things just don't work that way (I wish they did!). Although MONEY is NOT everything, I agree, in TODAY'S world, our societies THRIVE off of it. So ECONOMIC and FINANCIAL security is VERY important because of this. MOST PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO LIVE IN POVERTY, agreed?

ALSO, so you wish to stay in MEXICO and live YOUR life in your country?? That is COMPLETELY VALID and that is FAIR, and I have no problem with YOUR decision. If YOU are happy with your life, that is GOOD. EVERYONE should be ABLE to do what they want with THEIR own lives, to be HAPPY, right, don't you agree?? I do.

So let's turn to the question of CHILDREN. Do THEY have the right?? Perhaps AFTER seeing BOTH sides, a MEXICAN CHILD will CHOOSE to stay in MEXICO, and if they are HAPPY, that is GREAT!

But what about if a MEXICAN child FEELS the STRESSES of jobs that do not pay very well, a DESIRE to become more FINANCIALLY stable and become, PERHAPS, an ASTRONAUT?? Maybe the child DREAMS of making over $100,000 a year as a DOCTOR. Yes, it's MONEY, but what about if a CHILD feels he or she is TRAPPED by the ECONOMIC SOCIETY.

Let's say that THIS MEXICAN CHILD LOVES HIS OR HER HERITAGE….Let's say that the child is PROUD to be MEXICAN, ENJOYS SPENDING TIME WITH HIS FAMILY and practicing TRADITIONS. But he or she WANTS to, DESIRES to, DREAMS of, owning a THREE STORY house, a CORVETTE, and his or her own SUCESSFUL SMALL BUSINESS??

Does a CHILD have the right to CHOOSE his or her own DESTINY? I say yes. YOU may be happy with your life, that is GREAT! But what do we do about the CHILD?

My answer is that we, as parents, try to GIVE our children EVERY opportunity and let HIM or HER decide.

FAMILY, TRADITION, and CULTURE will be there EVEN IF a child desires to advance ECONOMICALLY. BUT…..ECONOMIC opportunities will NOT or be MUCH HARDER to acheive if a CHILD is not helped to become PREPARED to confront a competetive WORLD market. The CHILD may never get HIS or HER chance, may never fulfill HIS OR HER dreams. The CHILD will be WAY WAY BEHIND and probably will never catch up. It will be too much work and almost impossible.

So, CALEB, won't FAMILY and CULTURE and TRADITIONS always be there?? If one CHOOSES to live as you have, can they not CHOOSE this life after CHOOSING what ECONOMIC path to take??

Therefore, it is NOT by any means to down MEXICO, their will be many YOUNG people who would like to leave MEXICO due to the ECONOMIC conditions but will be UNPREPARED to advance in the U.S. It is a hard life! My NIECE, on the other hand, speaks ENGLISH, is going to finish her education here, will be ready to go to college, and can STILL choose to live in MEXICO if she wishes. She can ALSO choose to become a highly payed LAWYER in the U.S. if SHE WISHES.

That, to me, is a GREAT situation. She can pick! That's what I want! I respect her decision the same as I respect YOURS.

LASTLY CALEB, I know that MEXICAN people are hard workers. LISTEN, your COUNTRY and people are NOT the “government!” So, I do NOT insult MEXICAN people. SURE, I know and hope that it will be a better ECONOMIC situation for MEXICANS one day. SURE, I know that the U.S. is NOT PERFECT!

So, with that said, allow me to rephrase my statement: “Isn't it better for a CHILD to be born in the U.S. in regard to his or her ECONOMIC FUTURE and SECURITY? ALTHOUGH Mexico is RICH in TRADITIONS, FAMILY, CULTURE, etc., can it be said that CHILDREN can have THESE VERY IMPORTANT ASPECTS OF LIFE together with FINANACIAL AND ECONOMIC success so that THEY, THEY, THE CHILDREN will ultimately have the FINAL decision in how THEY wish to live?? I think that it can and SHOULD be said. I think that HARD WORKING MEXICANS need to continue to support a better ECONOMIC future for MEXICO while preserving their HERITAGE.

In the meantime, the U.S. IS better equipped to provide the EDUCATION, SECURITY, and FINANCIAL opportunities that one needs to deal with POVERTY. That doesn't mean to say that ONE country is BETTER than the other, it is just a FACT.

But, Caleb, continue to practice your traditions, love your family, culture, etc. Yes this is important! I respect that.

Let's just make sure that we give our CHILDREN “ALL” of the necessities that THEY will need to make their own choices LATER in life and let's don't let our CHILDREN feel LATER that they cannot PURSURE “THEIR” DREAMS due to OUR DECISIONS for THEIR LIVES.

My Part III:
Phil,

Agreed. Thank you for your rephrase… and in that I do agree: the people that go over there find that the economy is important in their life, and I respect that; is their choice, and I wish them well.

You may find my comments utopian, but I get, as you, as a human being, the will to decide what will be the foundation of our lifestyle; a personal lifestyle, going beyond tradition and society. Right now, I believe that both of us are, because of this discussion, in a position in which we have encountered the main differences of our ideas which is indeed the decision of what is the foundation of our lifestyle:

“So, CALEB, won’t FAMILY and CULTURE and TRADITIONS always be there?? If one CHOOSES to live as you have, can they not CHOOSE this life after CHOOSING what ECONOMIC path to take??”

Yes, but this implies that you've decided to choose your economic path before making the decision of which life (tradition, culture, etc.) to live; I'm not indicating in any way that this decision is “bad” or “wrong”, it's your choice and my choice in the end, and we have our own reasons to do so.

“She can pick! That’s what I want! I respect her decision the same as I respect YOURS.

Thank you, and I'm certain she'll pick well. Yes, the situation you have visioned for her makes it so that her ability to choose will be endless, and it'll be an easy choice economically.

Many of my countrymen have chosen this way: again, it's their choice, good for them.

But I, and many who are still here, have made a choice of deciding first what type of life (traditions, culture, etc.) to live and then decide what economic path to take. Even though our lifestyle and culture comes with us and is always there, if one of us opts to first decide the economic path it's, in some way, an abandonment of that lifestyle and culture; not a complete abandonment, of course, but a demotion in the priority list. How many of my brothers have gone out to U.S. land and when I speak to them in their natal language they act as if they don't know it? How many of my sisters have looked down on me because “I'm still living in Mexico”? I know that these examples aren't the big picture, and it's probably a small percentage of what's really going on, but it's a sign of what I'm talking about.

I agree that choosing first your economic path almost guarantees an easy choice for years to come, but, for us, at what cost? That's why I don't fully agree with U.S.-Mexican immigration: it's ourselves putting our own culture at the line. Yes, it may be profitable, and may assure economic stability and growth that can assure an easy choice for later generations, but we're a group of people that it's characterized by pushing themselves through struggle. 50% of poverty, 75% government corruption, 65% illiterate population… I'm proud to say we've been worse, and we're getting better, slowly, fighting to get better through struggle.

… Learning to dream, they learn how to make themselves great, to make themselves dignified, they learn to struggle. That is why, when true men and women say 'we are going to dream,' they are saying, and they are saying to each other, 'we are going to struggle'…
- Subcomandante Insurgente Marcos, The History of Dreams

I've been thought a dream of having Mexico out of debt, creating it's own technology, and take part of the future Big 9 meetings. I've a college degree, with my own company, and accepted to do a postgraduate degree in Manchester, U.K. I'm someone's child, and I have made my own decision of what I want to do, through struggle, and I'll walk through that classroom feeling “I'm Mexican, living in Mexico, and coming back to Mexico”.

My children will have their own dreams, and I'm sure as hell they will make them true. They will still have the beautiful situation of choosing: but a choice, for us, comes with struggle, life in it's own way makes you earn it. So, yes, it'll be harder for them because of it, but (here comes the best part) I rather know that they have that feeling of being part of something that it's truly theirs, then giving them an economically stable future without that feeling. With all due respect, your niece may decide return to Mexico but will she really feel Mexican? I'm guessing she'll feel more as an American (with all understanding), because, obviously, she has lived there the biggest part of her life. I'm not saying this isn't right: it was your choice for your family, and there's nothing wrong in feeling as an American. But I'm Mexican, and it's very important for me that my children feel that way also… yes, even more so than assuring them economic well-being: because I've decided first what type of life I want me and my children to live and then, based on that, where to make money independently of how hard it will be because of my first decision. Going somewhere else that is not Mexico and raising them there will make it very hard for them to feel that way (although I know it can be done, I've seen it in your country), but if I'm going to struggle with something I rather struggle with making my home better in which my children have their own nation surrounding, infecting them with patriotism of their homeland, then making my children feel mexican in a place where I'm good financially. The beautiful thing about this is that my kids will have this exact same choice as well, and they, as well as your kids, will get to pick; and no, it won't be an easy choice for my kids, but I know she'll have her country by her side to do it (yeah, I'm hoping for someday having a girl, jeje).

I understand where you're coming from, and I respect it, I'm even thanking you for it. Everyone has different opinions of what they want for them and their families and how to get it, and that is exactly what I wanted to point out: we have different priorities, even more so when it comes to family… I wish well for you, your family and your country, and from what I've read, I'm pretty sure you'll wish exactly that back, so at least we have that in common, jeje =).

Phil's Part III:
CALEB:

Whether we agree on everything or not, I respect the LOGIC you use when responding to my posts. You are NOT just spouting off irresponsible comments of hatred. I will say that I appreciate a good debate anytime, but some people just have no clue about the subject at hand.

It’s nice to see a couple of guys like us (and, of course, we aren’t the only ones) making GOOD points and debating them.

I do, indeed, wish well for your family and for Mexico. I have the upmost respect for your people, country, culture, etc. I hope that this immigration situation is worked out in a way that both sides can benefit. Only time will tell.

My Part IV:
=)